The Maverick of Brain Optimization (#83)

Nice. Dabbling in neurofeedback as well and it's great fun and quite a nice journey! The whole neuro'something' is such an awesome frontier. I feel like Star Trek (rather Brain Trek) boldly going where I haven't gone before. Nerd-isms for the win.

Many "Thanks" for the rapid fire podcasts lately. One slam dunk after the next.

Just wanted to say that I really appreciate the genuine encouragement, thoughtfulness, and humor that you bring. I seems that you strive to bring amazing information, but what I enjoy the most is your authenticity, and the genuine kindness that I hear in you. I thought I would say it out loud (or write it) rather than just think it.

I confess I miss it when you just wrote blog posts, it all felt way more objective back then

So how can we play the game that these experimental patients are playing?

Prescription to play video games… Sign me up!!! Also, “Preventing Alzheimer’s” by Shankle (M.S., M.D) and Amen (M.D) is a good book on preventing the symptoms of Alzheimer’s. The book talks on how the right training and knowledge one can have the disease and maintain a normal life. You can use it as a tool to reduce risk and recognize symptoms. I’m like Tim have both Alzheimer’s and Parkinson’s in my family history so interviews like this are very appreciated. I can’t wait for these games to be mainstream!

I do wonder how much better off most people would be if they just committed to a consistent long-term meditation practice vs. reading about ways to improving cognition through other methods, using PEDs or engaging in other lab-rat-style experiments. I'm not referring to scientists (who I encourage in pushing boundaries!), but lay-people, including the type of folks who seem to be reading this blog and other similar blogs on the web. I say this since a large proportion of the bio/life-hackers I know spend an inordinate amount of time research and studying ways to hack their lives, as opposed to doing things that are proven to work (e.g. meditation, eating an ancestral diet, getting daily exercise, spending time with friends and family, etc.). Ravi [Moderator: link removed]

Great Episode. Tim: Your theory of hallucinogens is very interesting. From my own experience, I really think Hallucinogens act more as Positive or Negative Allosteric Modulators of receptors that we have, making us more receptive to external certain signals, or antagonizing our inhibitions of those signals. It's a mechanism that underlies the effect of many other already known substances, for example substances that enhance auditory, gustatory or olfactory senses. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allosteric_modulator Another example being Ethanol, which acts as a positive allosteric modulator on GABA A receptors, increasing the potency of ligand binding. What I'm doing to maintain cognitive abilities.: Constant learning and pursuit of excitement. Never accepting boredom, but realizing that 'Boredom is the worst case scenario'. The opposite of boredom being, in my book: Wonder, sudden life-changing realizations.

what does everything think of the game Luminosity? I like how that game gauge you by your stats and is compared with other users of the same age around the world.

hi Tim, This comment is more of a way to reach you, not a comment as such. I met you once in Samovar in the Mission. This was many years ago and you will not remember me. I am a big fan of the "4 hour body" and am in india currently. I think Yoga can address many physical and mental issues. I am a software engineer and musician and artist, etc. and have many ideas and would like to connect with you. PS: Cindy knows me well Thanks, Ra

Fantastic topic Tim! And it's great to see you getting behind such important work that really is ground breaking. We had Dr Joe Dispenza on our podcast a few weeks ago and I attended his work shop with him the weekend in Melbourne. Incredible! It literally is mind altering stuff! I look forward to listening to your conversation with Dr Adam Gazzaley 🙂 & a big thanks for making your podcasts available to us all! Guy

Thanks Tim! What I love the most about a podcast like this is that it just brings the listener as if there are sitting in a living room chatting with a group of friends over wine. The best kind of immersion. On a perhaps unrelated note (although wine was mentioned in this podcast), are there any devices, vacuum or otherwise, that you recommend to keep wine fresh longer? Much thanks and make a wonderful evening!

I have been doing neurofeedback training for a a few years now. It has help me significantly. Thanks for making Adam Gazzaley's work available. ~nina

This article brings innovation a whole new frontier. Thanks for the genuine information.

One of the best articles I have read and I am looking forward to knowing about it more. Being in the 21st century where mankind has invented or developed something and this is brain optimization is very promising i and I am sure it will improve the quality of one's life if it is used by someone who wants to improve his life in a good way but I am just wondering.. since it is a brain optimization.. mainly the logic there is to optimize your brain.. make your brain process information faster but what are the fall backs of this new development as far as morale is concerned?

This podcast just keeps getting better! THANK YOU for that! DISCLAIMER: My ignorance; sorry in case it finds its way to the surface somehow. Keep reading, please. I’ve come up with an idea for your podcast! I, personally am “lucky” in that I already had read Surely You’re Joking Mr. Feynman, and knew about the guy, so I felt more connected to the conversation you had about him. But that got me thinking about all those other people who haven’t had the “time” to dig deeper into Richard’s life. Combined with the fact that you’re so good at researching and bringing up interesting things about most things/people, I thought it would be cool to maybe have some kind conversation with dead people, where you/your team try your best to figure out how truly amazing, but sadly dead, people like Richard Feynman would have answered to your questions which you usually ask living people on your show. It might just be the crazy me, who’d find it interesting, but I think dead people are still people and it would make for an interesting piece of work! Dear reader, please like and/or reply to this comment if you find the idea worth a shot! 🙂

Hi Everyone, Hi Tim, I'm 57 and I just discovered you and your work and podcasts. Absolutely amazing! But more than that, I'm completely inspired. Completely motivated to devour more of your podcasts and learn how to utilize information in my life while traveling the road to excellent health. Just wanted to say thank you for all the great work and effort you've put into this realm of research. Exciting times ahead as I continue to learn more about this fascinating and extremely important topic. Again, thank you!

To avoid Parkinsons, avoid exposure to chemicals. For brain – as much as possible – physical exercise, meditation, cold pressed juicer, plant based diet, grass fed protein, no headache pills so when you have a headache think first of what you ate or drank that may have caused it, drink pure water, avoid chemical drugs unless your life depends on them.

Hey Tim, love the show. Been hooked since your interview with Justin Boreta! I definitely have a concern about my cognition considering that I am in recovery and have, well, "abused" my brain in the past. That said I've had a mild interest in nootropics but honestly not done a great deal of research on them. I know the best way for me to learn about things is to just do the digging but that usually opens up pandoras box and I find myself obsessed, reading article after article of said topic, losing myself in a sea of information and I usually end up confused as to which product to choose. Maybe do an episode or blog of some of the nootropic compounds that have positive, documented benefits and the research to back them up. There's so many manufacturers out there with incredible marketing backing them, it's easy to get misdirected. Thanks so much, your show is an inspiration.

Yes if there's one thing I am afraid of it is mental degradation. I'm only 20 years old but it is something real and I see it effect people close to me. Getting old is a fear of mine. Will it be in 20 years? Maybe not. Maybe. But right now after listening to Grain Brain I know cutting large portions of guten and sugar will drastically benefit me and my brain.

Tim. I love LOVE LOVE this podcast. And the science themed ones are uber cool. I think the scientific method, observing and interpreting results should be something we teach. Especially experiment set up: related to neuroscience, I read about one experiment that shut down human language ability and tested if we could recall which wall in a room (4 walls) is red. Results, without language we're as dumb as rats, i.e. we're guessing. The scientists accomplished this by making the test subjects read while they change the color of the wall. Apparently that old adage about filling a cup that is full is true. And we can't really multi-task. But you can probably see all that from the memory-knowledge you've gained. Anywho, more scientist with detailed experiments would be AWESOME. I mean, that testing of book covers you documented in the four hour work week locked me in as a fan for life. Forget being lucky, forget being smart, testing is superior to both, it reveals the truth. Also, thank you for the long format and MEAT-y podcasts. The Tim Ferriss experiment is awesome, but only 22 min of screen time is way too short! So what a wonderful medium you have found for us. THANK YOU SO MUCH! very awesome and always looking forward to the next.

Both you and Dr. Gazzaley should check out the documentary, "Alive Inside" which is about the consist effect listening to music from their era is having on the elderly. Also, you may be interested in how sugar is contributing to dementia. Thanks for your books and podcasts! Janine

He looks much younger… I wonder why…

Regarding the 10% myth, once upon a time I did neurofeedback under someone in the neurofeedback industry since its inception. She told me that the 10% myth came from when instruments were only sensitive enough to read activity in the motor cortex strip, which occupies about 10% of the brain. The media sensationalized and romanticised it (as they are apt to do) and the myth just wouldn't die even after sensors improved enough to determine we use much more than 10%. No idea if this is completely accurate, but it is the only semi-official source I have ever found for this.

I listen to your podcasts on my iPhone during my drive to and from work. I also take all my breaks and lunches in my vehicle so I can listen to them. While I find most of them fascinating, for me this one has been the most intriguing and interesting of them all so far. I wish you could have seen my eyes light up when Dr. Gazzaley mentioned the Foundation series of books by Issac Asimov. I too have read and reread those books. As I have aged they have taken on new meaning and perspective. Gordon R Dickson's Dorsai/Childe series of books were another favorite. I also was a bio/chemistry major in college until love wrecked my then academic life and I left school to pursue the woman of my dreams. When I eventually came to my senses and renewed my education, I left my passion behind and began taking business courses. Now, late in life, I realize I locked myself into a passionless relationship with the corporate world. Though it's too late to alter that particular course, I am working to change what the final years remaining to me will look like, and this podcast may just be one of those transformational moments that you both spoke of. And, yes, I am afraid of losing my cognitive abilities as I continue with this aging process. I am working on limiting that loss by improving my overall physical health through eating a paleo/natural whole food inspired diet, exercise and improving my gut health so I can properly absorb the nutrients I need. Also studying mitochondria and ATP production for bioenergetic needs and what I need to promote improvement there. I take a regimen of resveratrol, PQQ and CoQ10 along with other supplements to attempt to improve mitochondrial health. Looking all the time for new and better information for brain health. Big thank-you to you and Dr. Gazzaley for this incredible podcast. Looking forward to the day when he and his team release some of those games to the general public.

I try to learn as many languages as possible, it's the best way, you get to maintain the brain and have so much fun as you want.

Hi Tim and Adam, I looked on YouTube for a video about an older man with Alzheimers who becomes more cognitively alert once he listed to music and here is one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fw7Y78aqf_I It is amazing. All the best to you both, David

As far as brain function goes,I'm a 63 yr old woman. I workout 5-6 days a week at 90% max HR (treadmill), play and study the drums 4-6 hours a day, eat healthfully, supplement. I lost 50 lbs a year ago and have adopted a new lifestyle to keep it off. Your podcasts and books are inspiring and motivational. I've started journaling, and meditating. Thank you for your good work! You're a hoot Tim

Awesome. I have a question. I'm a married man with a child. I wanna do the Definition Step of DEAL, should i use a DreamLine WorkSheet for me and my wife both together or an DreamLine WorkSheet for each one separately?

Another great podcast What am I doing to fight the decline (I am 56)? I have given up grains and sugar, (This one change has meant no sinusitis any more after suffering my whole life, no IBS, no Psoriasis) learning languages, (audio tapes, fluentU and Duolingo), exercising more, playing Nozuku Rush ( tetris with arithmetic). Planning to start learning a musical instrument and meditating more regularly (used to do this years ago – I agree with Arnold that it does have lasting effects) Listening to more of Tim's podcasts and after this one getting back into first person shooters ( I used to love Descent – is there a newer version of this?)

Hey Tim, Love the podcast and the TV show! I have a question about the transcripts. I was happy to see them offered and even grabbed a few after purchasing the TV season. I was hoping the first part of your interview with Pavel Tsatsouline would be included. I could only find part 2 with the Q&A. I've listened to that episode several times now and would love a transcript if possible. Thank you, Greg

You asked if I am afraid of losing cognitive ability as I age. My family does not suffer from cancer or anything like that — in fact we tend to live well past 80 years old. The curse is dementia. It leaves a lasting mark on you when you tell your grandmother who suffers from Alzheimer's that a tornado is coming, and she deadpans back, "Who's Tornado?" She often did crosswords to attempt to stem her cognitive decline. I have heard physical activity, even as little as walking, showed promising results in Alzheimer patients. I avoid deodorant containing metals (particularly aluminum). I know that I DON'T know what will help, so I have prescribed myself a healthy regimen of challenging work, constant learning, video games, and the occasional dalliance with cognitive enhancing drugs like piracetam. That grandmother, by the way, had a surprising party trick. Even though she couldn't remember her family's names, she could sit down at a grand piano and play a perfect concerto from start to finish with no sheet music. Then she'd stand up and continue on her way like nothing happened. ~

Where can we learn more about Metatrain? Did Dr. Gazzaley say it was an app? Great interview!

My understanding of the 10% myth is that it comes from the fact that 10% of the human brain (in terms of the number of cells) is composed of neurons, while the other 90% are glial cells ("brain glue"). The study of the brain was initially neuron-centric (hence "neuroscience") but the role of glial cells has become increasingly recognized and studied. Check out http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v457/n7230/full/457675a.html

Wow, this was one of your best interviews and one of the most intriguing conversations I've heard on your podcast. I love the opportunity for creativity that science, technology, and medicine provide. It's one thing to be an expert in your field. It's quite another to make scientific breakthroughs by combining 3 or 4 different fields of expertise.

COOL! As a producer of tDCS system, I would like to express my appreciation for all the works done about neuroscience. With all these contribution more and more people will get noticed and be able to improve the quality of life!

I don't want You to think that I am just spamming, but You really inspired me and I created a blog. If You could find a minute, that would be a big privilege for me, if You just come and see. Thank You. [Moderator: link removed]

Enhancing cognitive will definitively improve the life and assist with later research. Hopefully they find a better way to treat Alzheimer and dementia.

Damn, this was pure badass, and probably the single best podcast episode I've ever listened to!

Love all of your content Tim, I have for years. Can't wait to read this book. I've plugged away at things for a few years, and finally come up with a virtual company – straight Tim Ferris style. It has take a long time, but my [Moderator: link removed] is rolling!

Tim, I'm not a scientist…but have really loved the Rhonda / Peter Attia and now this interview! I vote yes to the direction. What makes your interviews stand-out though is the thoughtfulness of the questioning, the mix of serious and "let's not take life too seriously" bonhomie, and the naturally highly curious minds on the end of your question marks…

Great conversation and needless to say…you lit my encephalon UP. Couple of observations and questions: While I understand Dr. Gazzaley's great passion wedded with his savvy business model, as well as his effort to bring an integrated approach to these 21st Century, brain science informed modalities, what can be said about these questions: Adam alluded to not knowing exactly what "up-regulates" global brain function (perhaps I misinterpreted…). Don't ancestral health principles, e.g., eating, moving, thinking, feeling, and sleeping well already built into the 2.6 million year old genetic blueprint/intelligence, inform us–just via evolutionary biology? In Adam's effort to apply the scientific process with gold standard RTC's/blinded studies, how can he take into account the phenomenon of "nature deprivation" when attempting to rule in/out limiting factors? He was admittedly "nature deprived" growing up in New York. How does this inconvenient truth about most of us 21st Century citizens get factored into the most robust approach/outcomes for these modalities? To sum it up, isn't a big part of the problem trying to apply a reductionistic approach to a target organ that is so inextricably connected to a "super system" including the magnificent environment from which it emerged? IE, How in the world could these evolved biotech approaches take all of what's necessary into consideration while, and again circumventing the already known truth that if we're not eating, moving, thinking, feeling and sleeping well one day at a time for a lifetime, we're not well? 'N the good doctor just hammering down the high spots again with a new form of a pill?

And Ps….I got so excited to ask these questions, I haven't yet finished the conversation with just a few minutes left..forgive me if this was mentioned…But I'm wondering what Dr. Gazzaley thinks about applying these modalities to addiction medicine. It occurs to me that what I have done through my own addiction recovery and remission is much of what he discussed including integrated nutrition, up regulating with music, strength training, CV exercise, flexibility, cognitive, emotional and psycho-spiritual practices. Any thoughts on a subject/issue (addiction) that is literally dying for fresh approaches?

The video "The Pleasure Of Finding Things Out" has been blocked, FYI.

Thanks for the podcast. Made an excellent listen.

The podcast made me think about: 1. the importance of the time before and around "the peak", especially the role of inspiration and mentoring (tutoring? ). Since you miss the feminine percpective (which is not exactly your fault :)) let me point out, that this is something most women lack more than men. But anyway… It is not only about what you can loose, when you start "getting old", but also what you "put in the box" in the first place, when your abilities are at it's so called peak. 2. The whole subject of CHANGE is fascinating. I wonder what kind of pre-conditions and conditions could have played a role in the study in which the videogames made such an improvement. As we know f.ex. from studies on stereotype threat effect, even the instruction can make a difference. And then the enhancement of self-esteem?…But those are some psychological variables, I don't know if they were taken under consideration in this study, I will have to take a look 🙂

Very nice podcast. Looking forward to see more. Thanks, Dr.Henry Sardar, D.O

Tim, With regards the philosophical questions surrounding virtual reality, you *have* to watch this new TED Talk by Donald Hofmann if you haven't seen it already: https://www.ted.com/talks/donald_hoffman_do_we_see_reality_as_it_is He convincingly argues that reality as we perceive it is actually a user interface (with limited resolution, incidentally), and fundamentally different from reality as it really is. Mind-blowing. B

thanks for debunking the we only use 10% of our brain myth, I never believed that.

mitochondria health: CLA, ALCAR, lecithin neuroregeneration: SSRI, GH

Dr. Gazzaley, Was wondering what is your opinion about Dual N-Back ?

I also have family members who suffer from Alzheimer’s and Parkinson’s disease. If you're in a position to support research in these areas, please do what you can.

I take steps to eat well and get most of my nutritional requirements on a day to day level but i'm prone to occasional periods of degeneracy that certainly compromise access to my optimal cognitive performance.

Thanks for this interview! While I love all the podcasts, it was great to hear from a scientist! You pointed this out, but the "it depends" is such a classical answer to hear from all the scientists. A couple areas got pretty down into the weeds of data, so any chance we could get an interview with Nate Silver?

Fucking awesome episode. Nights Dawn trilogy changed my life.

This was a great podcast. Thank you! I am more afraid of cancer than Alzheimer's or Parkinson's diseases. Everything we come in contact on a daily basis has carcinogen to some degree. You need to live on top of a mountain, make your own furniture, grow your own vegetables, fruits and raise your own animals to be safe. Susan Freinkel's book Plastic: A Toxic Love Story is an eye opener. I avoid plastic consumption as much as I can. No plastic cups for drinks, no plastic plates or spoons and forks, no plastic containers etc. This article from 2012 might be of interest to you: http://www.cbsnews.com/news/can-bees-lead-to-a-longer-human-life-span/ That article makes you wonder if "social" media really makes people social or just the other way around. We live in an information age, but people are getting unhealthier (more obesity). I appreciate Adam Gazzaley's work to move the society forward. I prefer listening to people who talk calm, not fast like you are rushing to catch something. Rick Rubin podcast was a real pleasure in that way. All the best xx

Great episode Tim. These 'mind' episodes are great man. Love em!

Dimentia on one side of the family. 100% of that family side by 55. So I'm very concerned. I turned to Brain Light Therapy here in Dallas to remap damaged areas of the brain. Works very well, very quickly. I also am exploring Functional Medicine for whole body health to heal any brain/health connection. This is slower but extremely Important for keeping the brain healthy. I am seeing whole body healing.

Tim, hi. I feel that you get a too attached to using your interview questions instead of exploring what is coming up at the moment. I missed questions like "what habits can anyone do to improve brain plasticity and cognition and what do you do for it other than videogame?" I find this would have been more interesting than what whiskey he drinks, for example. Someone wrote something similar about your FIRST interview with Josh Waitzkin last year: "Only piece of constructive criticism: I felt the lowest value portions of both were the abrupt transitions to rapid-fire-question sections, especially in the second podcast. It seemed as though you interrupted a solid flow on Joshua’s dialogue with a few A B C canned questions. " Still applies. What about using canned questions as backups only when you run out of words, but otherwise explore more what is being said at the moment? Other than that, exciting stuff.

Hmm sounds to me like Gazzaley is really testing people's ability to habitualise behaviors and isn't really testing multitasking because that is something we can't actually do: think about 2 things at once. It's more likely that players are becoming good at forming habits than becoming good at "multitasking." Right?

Random link for the Random Show Guy.I've heard you mention your love of hand drumming.As a fellow drummer I'd say this thing looks pretty cool.Have you already seen it? http://ovalsound.com/

I second some comments that ask for commercial availability of these games. Any idea please?

Tim, I have a 2 year old son with Down Syndrome. He is a fantastic little guy and healthy as can be. He is obviously delayed in growth and cognitive ability. I've seen articles about the link between Alzheimer's and Down Syndrome and that they are related. Do you think Dr. Gazzaley's work in improving cognitive ability could work in the Down Syndrome community?

Hi Tim, I too have Alzheimer’s disease on both side of my family. Is there any programs/ apps/ games you currently use to potentially slow the degradation of your cognitive function?

This is a great episode, even in 2022. I am definitely sharing it on my blog podcast recommendations. Thank you both!

Awesome! Thank you for inspiring and sharing your journey with us!!

It would be even cooler if Adam Gazzaley could blog (or similar) about this neuroman project. Quite sure a lot of us would be very keen on that. I have not been able to find anything official about it except being mentioned in the podcast.

My 88 year old grandmother (Nana) is such an interesting case. She has spent her whole life doing cryptic crossword puzzles. I never really thought that much of cryptic crosswords until I actually tried one and learned that the clues, are a puzzle in themselves. I digress. Nana recently had a series of strokes, somewhere in the brainstem (apparently). Why she's so interesting is that because she's still very sharp, she can give me a running commentary on the parts of her brain that AREN'T working. eg. I can hold in mind the THING that I want to say, and I can describe it. Like, it's round, it's ceramic, people usually eat their breakfast out of it, mine are white, it's sort of shaped like this {makes gestures with her hands}. But I have trouble just coming out and saying it's a 'bowl'. She's truly fascinated by her own shortcomings and how her brain has changed. It's such an interesting way to end your life! Of course, I took up Cryptic Crossword puzzles.

I agree, are any games commercially available? And if not, are there any out on the market that the Dr. would recommend?

Totally agreed. I'd like to know his opinion on tools that are already out there. Since unfortunately none of Gazzaley labs' tools can be uses by the general public.

I got so swept up I forgot to list the #1 thing I do to combat cognitive decline: being physically active! Strength training, Brazilian jiu jitsu, and hiking keep my mind right.

Totally agree. I had similar reflections, but I wrote them in the "General Stan McChrystal…" podcast.

Tim is a hoot! He also likes to drop the f bomb, which makes him all the more relatable. 🙂 I agree quality, quantity and range of information he has shared has been fantastic and so welcome.

I second that, such things should be published for others to get inspired and join in the same industry. Competitively or not this would bring more overall progress in neuro science.

Agreed. I'd love to get his opinion on the games out there like Luminosity. On another note, Impressed how often you're getting out these podcasts Tim!

+1 for this awesome suggestion.